I didn�t want to be too long, so I separated my links from my own words, here.
graywolfe (great name), Can good argument change minds? I offer myself as one who HAS changed his mind. For me, it started with Lincoln. I know most historians consider him one of the greatest (at least) presidents. But he hugely increased Fed power, had a draft, and started a big war that killed masses of Americans. Yes, he did end slavery. But Brazil was able to end slavery by 1890 without a war� Ending slavery was great. Killing so many was terrible. Authorities told me it was worth it, but one of my Libertarian mottoes is �Question Authority�. So I asked myself, how many had to die, before I thought it was too many? My (arbitrary) number was � of 1%. The number was about 2%. That�s too many. Lincoln was lousy. I changed my mind.

I certainly supported full gay rights, and even gay marriage benefits (while basically opposing all taxes, anyway), up through my �86 & �88 campaigns (age 32). But the gay lifestyle DOES go with AIDS. Everybody who wants to argue in favor of gay rights & RAH promiscuity based on �life during Nixon�, are really out to lunch. If morals are absolute, then it�s wrong, and has always been wrong, and will always be wrong. If morals are relative, it�s wrong now because it�s so unhealthy.

graywolfe: �That being said, I have no doubt that a large majority of gay men and women in their 20's or older were fundamentally born with that sexual identity, and to oppress them for that identity is no different, in my view, than basic racism, prejudice, or sexism.� But is state non-recognition of �gay marriage� oppression? Is all �less than equal treatment� oppression? I don�t agree with letting lesbians or gays adopt children, over which the state has responsibility (for legal adoptions). I don�t like, but wouldn�t make it illegal, for lesbians to get artificially inseminated to have their own children. It wouldn�t bother me if it was illegal, and I wouldn�t call it oppression. (All who are not farmers are being oppressed by Bush�s recent farm bill)

Supporting gay marriage, supports the gay lifestyle choice of behaviors (therefore more gays), supports more gays being more promiscuous (in numbers, though perhaps not in percentages), supports more AIDS, supports more death. The gay lifestyle, and all those who defend it, is supporting more death. The pope articulated it: the culture of death.

And Eddie was right (long ago) about the pro-gay/ pro-AIDS need to fight against Christianity; the Christian morality has long been against homosexuals. The Christian family unit, and the focus on each individual as sacred have been pillars of Christian (Western) Civilization. Not ideal, but better than any real alternatives. But while I�m increasingly in agreement with that view, that�s not the point of my argument. I�ve been trying to argue in such a way that some who really are open minded can write how their minds might be changed.

Everard??? Are you chickening out? I asked for a number. Instead of you giving me yours, you asked for one of mine. I gave it. Where�s yours? (Or were your counter questions just close-minded BS?)

What do I expect? Well, I didn�t expect the Spanish Inquisition! (Boom! Crash! [Door bursts in] No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. Our chief weapon is surprise. And fear. Our two�) {or,} Well, I expected some pea brained wise guy who thinks he knows everything to speak up. To level my opposing arguments with devastating wit, to steam roll my disagreements with pile driving irony, to demonstrate once and for all that the right thinking people of the world will only laugh at, never answer, all the wrong-thinkers who ever pose a question that questions the majesty of the ivory tower citadel that those, the intellectually superior, morally advantaged, and obviously more humorous open minded folk, inhabit.

Do the facts matter? Is the argument against AIDs different if 90% of all gay men get it, or 50%, or 10%? Facts do matter to me. And I think they should.

So, TomD and Eddie�I believe gay marriage is cover for the gay lifestyle. I understand, please correct me if I�m wrong, that you believe social acceptance of gay marriage will reduce the promiscuity. A lot of anecdotal evidence has been noted here. Please show me some published evidence that many gays can live together in stable, monogamous pairs.

It could, for example, compare hets who sleep together, who live together monogamously, who get married and live together. How many stay together for 5 years or more? (For marriage it�s about 50% I�m fairly sure, live togethers much less.) Or the study could take 1000 hets and find out how many tried living with someone in the last 5 years, how many stayed together for 5 years (including getting married, but also separate out).

Then a similar study with gays. If the number (there�s that quantifying again) of gays who had stayed together was less than � the het number, I can guarantee you no fuzzy argument on your part will change my mind. Naturally, I do NOT know these facts; but my guess is that as many or more gays have �tried� living with somebody else, but their perseverance rate is much, much lower. On the other hand, if the number who did stay together was twice that of the het number, I would certainly think that the gay marriage argument was likely to lead to a better society.

If facts matter to a position, for or against legal recognition of gay marriage, what the facts should be in order to change from �for� to be �against� should be knowable, even if the facts themselves are not known, or knowable. As I write this, the real important facts I don�t know are: How many will get AIDS? with gay marriage, without? I�m afraid it�s unknowable. Other facts are only indications about this.

On the other hand, there are the two arguments of �principle�, gays are OK / gays are wrong, where the facts about AIDS infection doesn�t matter. I assume all who can�t come up with a (possibly unknown and unknowable) set of facts that could change their own position, are arguing from principle. The Christians are like this, against gays. The PC folk are for gays. Irrespective of the facts.

(Perhaps my late-entry challenges have something to do with the longevity of this thread � but it�s better than the Titan brain test LR linked too)

Oh no, it�s so late