Seagull: "So getting back to the moral issues here, I think that ignoring the point of view of our hostile enemy is either mindless or irresponsible. "

Did you read the Ornery essay on peace ... meaning submission? I think our US national interest is in real peace, which might well require that Arabs really submit.

Insofar as we want to force some form of "nation-state" gov't structure on them, in order that our gov't can deal with their gov't, we have been doing a lousy job. We should, for instance, be supporting more elections for local mayors and city councils, with real budgetary authority, so that they get more used to real democracy (since we're unwilling to really force any other form of gov't on them.)

OSC wrote about blood being spilt, awhile ago. I have this feeling that the 50 years of oppressive "temporary" refugee camps for the 700 000 Palestinians who were "terrorized" out of Israel in 1948, are slowly becoming a "Palestinian people/nation", and will soon be ready to form a nation-state. This is something they have not really been ready for in the past. The blood they are spilling, in suicide bombing, seems no less necessary for their side, than the blood Israel spilt in its '48 formation founding war and the '54 & '67 (6 day) & '73 wars (I think I missed one).

The Palestinians have lost. They have litterally lost "their" land OK, Jews had bought some 8-10% before '48. But they're not dead, nor living as conquered. So they still resist the loss.

I think their suicide bombing is bad -- but I don't think I can fully condemn it unless there is another way I think they can use to "win" back their land. And I don't think there is. I think they need to develop a national consciousness able to accept their loss. And start building a future.